Saturday, 15 February 2014

Tameside a borough of "fatties". But just why are the authorities concerned?

According to a government report 69% of Tamesiders are overweight or obese. This makes obesity the biggest health threat to local people and comes just twelve months after the British Heart Foundation said that Tameside residents are more likely to die from heart disease than anywhere else in the UK.

An interesting quote came from local MP Andrew Gwynne who said "It is clear that the current voluntary approach is not working and we need to open our minds to new approaches in tackling obesity". What does he mean "current voluntary approach not working"? 

But this concern for the health of the poor and the "working class" is not new.

In 1903 the Government set up a "Committee on Physical Deterioration " to examine the causes of the unhealthy physical condition of the poorer members of society. This led to the first pieces of social legislation in the UK. Free school meals and compulsory medical examinations in 1906. The reporting of births to medical officers and in 1908 old age pensions and the compulsory demolition of "back to back" slums.

So the government then, as now, was motivated by a concern for our health and welfare? Actually no.
The committee was set up in 1903, the year after the ending of the Boer War in South Africa. In this war thousands of would-be recruits were rejected as medically unfit to withstand the rigours of a campaign. According to one report only 1000 of 9000 volunteers in Manchester were fit enough to fight. Britain was facing the real possibility of her next enemy being "4 million heavily armed Germans", to quote Blackadder and not a few thousand farmers. Which exactly a century ago was what happened. The poverty struck unfit working class was to be fattened up for the slaughter fields of Flanders.

May I be excused if I view the Government's concern for our health with some suspicion?


Curmudgeon said...

Individuals should be responsible for their own health. Most of us want less not more government. We want to be educated and well-informed, but few people want to be nannied from cradle to grave.

Max Lightfoot said...

There you go again talking about Germans.

Anonymous said...

Being long in the tooth I would add that a considerable growth in anger
characteristics no prevails across the board and society has extremely
short fuses which lead to deep resentment if anyone tells another what to do.
It starts in young children with parents not accepting when a child at school is reprimanded by a teacher,and continues thereafter throughout life.
Eating until your fat knowingly strikes as a rebellious characteristic when at the time you want to be noticed.
That can be seen when obese people
strut their stuff in clothing that emphasis's their body parts in defiance.
Society needs to use more self control and find methods of restricting their daily angers which are causing the demise in society and its responsibility to each other.

Anonymous said...

What would England be like now if Germany had won the WAR?

Alf Garnett said...

The biggest health threat by far to local people is are hospital

Haff you herrd ze von about... said...

Germans on average have a poor sense of humour compared to the British.
Is that 'racist'? No, as I'm simply repeating the statement of a German relative who has lived here for many years. That isn't an offence, yet.

Anonymous said...

I know a German that hates England, anything that outwardly expresses Englishness he hates. But he won't admit to it.

Dr Chand for MP said...

Dr Chand is a credit to Tameside. Dr Chand passionately cares about the health and wellbeing of all Tamesiders. He should be put in charge of dealing with this fattness problem.

Anonymous said...

Very good German lady in the BNP

Mental Pitprop said...

@ Anonymous 16:27, the reason for much of the erratic/angry/moody behaviour you see in younger people can be summed up in five letters: D R U G S.

Das Reich said...

Andrew Brons is of German heritage I believe.

SerpentSlayer said...

Dr Chand is posting comments here I see.
The problem can't be fixed as it is merely a symptom of a much wider problem that can't be fixed in the confines of an overpopulated liberal democracy.
National Socialism is the only political system that can fix this rotten land and it's rotten people, and begin to wean them off of being in a constant state of mental stupor and self-obsession.
I wouldn't count on it here though. Even the French will reclaim their nation before we do for crying out loud.

Anonymous said...

15/02/2014 17:42

Anonymous Haff you herrd ze von about... said...
Germans on average have a poor sense of humour compared to the British.
Is that 'racist'? No, as I'm simply repeating the statement of a German relative who has lived here for many years. That isn't an offence, yet.

Very funny Philip, but what type of 'German' are we talking about? Lol

Anonymous said...

Dr Chand for MP said...
Dr Chand is a credit to Tameside. Dr Chand passionately cares about the health and wellbeing of all Tamesiders. He should be put in charge of dealing with this fattness problem.

This is an undoubted TMBC Labor supporter hell bent on wanting Chand as an MP,whilst in reality in my opinion he constantly chases
his own objectives purely on his push for being an MP.
I do not rate him whatsoever because throughout the years when Tameside people were being killed and harmed by Tameside Hospital his silence was deafening.
They stuck together at the cost of lives. all Politicians and Hospital Heads.

Anonymous said...

The problem with so-called 'national socialism' serpentslayer is that the concept is bound up for all time with a certain ugly little Austrian and his German friends, all of whom were either overweight themselves or far removed from any 'aryan' ideal.

No majority of any population is going to touch with a ten foot barge pole what a load of sinister creepy morons from the early 20th century had to say, and quite rightly so. Not the French, not the British, nobody.

The answer to this particular problem is multi-faceted, and Dr Chand himself made one good suggested that those who cripple themselves with obesity "should be made to walk through the pain". There are too many obese people in motor buggies and there's too much nannying by the NHS.

Another problem is our food obsessed culture, and I include slim people in that assessment. How many times do you switch your TV on to see yet another celebrity chef and some cooking programme promoting our bourgeoise restaurant culture. Walk around any town or city centre and people everywhere are pushing food into their mouths.

tonydj said...

anon @ 11:15

I like your comment about celebrity chefs, lot of truth there.

When you say 'making people crippled with obesity "walk through the pain" '. Are you advocating that people with self inflicted illnesses should be ignored? Or made less of a priority? HIV positive gays who practised promiscuous sex? Drug users?

It's all very well pointing the finger at typically working class illnesses. What about the wealthy and fashionable gay community and it's HIV pink ribbons?

I am not making a moral judgement here, just acting as a devil's advocate.

Driver 67 - Car 67 said...

Persecution and constant police visits can affect ones health.
Yet, I suppose all those visits are designed to have that damage?

Justified Hatred said...

Bearing in mind the absolutely appalling state of Britain's infrastructure, in particular things like our catastrophically neglected road network, sea defences etc it's time for a complete re-prioritisation of ALL government spending.
All spending on the feckless; all spending on self inflicted 'illnesses' such as drug addicts; the overweight; smokers; drinkers etc should now be scrapped; the vast sums given out without retraint to enormous numbers of young women who get pregnant (very often deliberately) with zero chance of being able to financially support their offspring; insanity vanity projects like the £43 billion train line HS2; the £11 billion wasted on foreign aid every year; the House of Lords - 800 plus useless, unnecessary parasites; the list goes on and on.
The country's basic infratructure is where the money should be spent, whatever's left should be banked for emergencies and alleviating the suffering of the genuinely and INNOCENTLY needy.

Max Lightfoot said...

Breaking news Roy West started the second world war. He's responsible for the creation of Alf Garnet, Fawlty Towers, Love thy neighbour.
Any links to the above sit-coms, Roy West will be held responsible.

Grow up and FOCUS said...

Meanwhile cretins like Osborne with his massive and crass misjudgment/threat about Scotland being debarred from using the pound, and cranks like 'them against us' Salmond attempt to detroy our united country in pursuit of their selfish and/or infantile agendas.
Whilst the ongoing immigration deluge continues and our infrastructure literally disintegrates, squabbling pygmies like these are too 'busy' trying to pointscore and divide our land, whether through juvenile, destructive pursuit of agendas or chronic blundering.

Anonymous said...

And anything else we can think of in the meantime.

Anonymous said...

@ Anonymous 12:15, or nothing else in your case.

Cheek by Jowl said...

MORE New Charter housing under construction: Twelve 1 bedroom/2 person apartments situated at the junction of Poplar Rd/Oak Tree Drive Dukinfield. To be built on a car park and piece of Green.
One more bit of open space gone, plus more people/cars/strain on infrastructure squeezed in: Net result = reduction in overall quality of life for residents.
Expect A LOT more of the same and worse, locally and nationally very soon.

Christian said...

It's so difficult to find out where the fault lies with regards to obesity. Is sugar to blame, or wheat, or something else?

I've recently read two interesting books on food/health: 'The Wheat Belly' by Dr William Davis, which blames wheat for the rise in obesity; and 'Fat Chance' by Dr Robert Lustig, which blames sugar. No doubt there'll be a book out sooner or later saying both claims are wrong!

Sorry to see the previous administrator of this blog depart. We had some disagreements, but as the Bard said, "all's well that ends well".

I'm sure the new administrator will chuckle at the quote I've reproduced below.

Ex-MI5 head Eliza Manningham-Buller said to her successor Jonathan Evans 'I'm sure you'll do as well as I did' , to which Evans replied 'That's what I'm afraid of'.

Anonymous said...

@ Grow up and FOCUS 11:54
That's good advice but when you are faced with constant police abuse of power, like Roy West and his long suffering family have been.
It's difficult to FOCUS on anything else.
The constant police visits have taken their toll on Roy West's partner's health.
What you need to understand, that, his family are being targeted by the police and new charter housing.
Individuals are sat there at home thinking what can we send the police round for this time.

A B C said...

Obesity comes from eating too much and moving too little.

Anonymous said...

@17/02/2014 23:43 what you need to do is take stock in what you are saying on here.

Christian said...

A B C,

You didn't read my comment correctly as per usual.

I was referring to the possible reasons for the RISE in obesity over recent years.

We are not eating more food than 20 years ago, and we are actually exercising more than in the past, yet obesity levels continue to rise inexorably.

Fair pay? FAIR PAY?? You're lazy. said...

I see Romanians and Bulgarians took one in ten of all new jobs created in the UK last year. Low pay, poor conditons etc will apply in A LOT of these positions. They won't see it that way of course, coming from countries where things are far worse, that's what makes them cheap, placid and easy to exploit and manipulate.
Now they've been given unfettered access to Britain, their importation as cheap labour will grow exponentially. The knock on effect will be YET ANOTHER reduction in pay and worsening of conditions for British workers.

Tameside Citizen said...

Once the police get their hooks into you, you've got a lifetime of harassment and persecution. Look at the way the police have completely ignored the vile and unfounded rumour spreading by certain people about Roy West.

Originally posted by Max Lightfoot. Edited by Moderator.

Aspiration Nation said...

If Labour are to believed, it's all these foodbanks feeding up the fat doleite dross.

Some ideas. For those out of work, make them pick litter or dog shit (that will shut up John Taylor). It also gets them to lose weight.

Look at planning: Stop awarding planning contracts to these Muslim takeaways (KFC in Hyde will be a God send - people will want KFC over a questionable takwaway and put all that row out of business). Remove all these places where you get cheap, low quality food like Lidl and Iceland.

Anonymous said...

The importation of Romanians etc won't result in a reduction in pay, because a lot of the jobs they take would be round about minimum wage anyway.

The reason why they take on such foreigners is because they regard them as being generally more reliable than British workers. I suppose in the eyes of a business owner loyalty to one's tribal kin doesn't really count. And the same is true with rented property and landlords prioritising Poles etc who (apparently) can be more readily trusted to pay on time.

Anonymous said...

Pay and conditions have been massively suppressed in the last few years as a direct result of the planned mass importation of cheap labour. Those imported are far less likely to demand pay rises, go on strike and are far easier to manipulate, as they regard this as the land of milk and honey. Many of them live en masse in cheap rented accomodation sending home (i.e. out of our economy) a significant proportion of their wages. The average week's pay here is worth many times that value in their own countries so they've got a far greater incentive to work.
The reason they take on foreigners is because they're cheap, don't complain - even when justified - and are easier to exploit and manipulate. This is why so many jobs pay the same rate they did six or seven years ago (sometimes less) despite the enormous increases in the cost of living, because employers have a vast, willing pool of imported mugs.
There is pride in work, there is none in being exploited.
Poles aren't more trustworthy than anyone else regarding paying rent.

A B C said...

@ Christian, you didn't read my comment at all.
The reason for the rise in obesity is a direct expansion of the reason obesity exists at all: Obesity comes from eating too much and moving too little.
In 2014, a lot more people move a lot less than in the past, we exercise a lot less, people don't walk as car ownership has rocketed in the last forty years. Relatively small numbers of people do exercise regularly, such as cycling to work, and virtually none of them are obese.
Large numbers of children in particular do little or no exercise, either organised or just 'playing out' due to internet/computer overuse, the result is more obesity.
We do indeed eat less than in the past but the dramatic reduction in exercise outweighs this and results in widespread obesity.
Ask any doctor for weight loss advice and they'll say the same, eat less, move more, lose weight.

It's not against the law to oppose Blood Sports said...

Welcome to the League Against Cruel Sports, the leading UK charity helping to prevent cruelty to animals associated with sports such as fox hunting, game bird shooting and wildlife crime.

We rely on public support to carry out our work, which includes campaigning to keep the Hunting Ban and preventing illegal hunting with dogs which, despite the Hunting Act, is still happening around the UK. Please join us in helping stamp out cruelty to animals for sport.

Anonymous said...

Above link is very interesting, and the part about shooting game birds.
The senior new charter enforcer, wanting names of people opposed to the blood sport should find that website interesting.

Poles Paying Rent said...

"Poles aren't more trustworthy than anyone else regarding paying rent."

You want to get your facts right before spouting. And if you're so wrong on that score, then probably wrong about everything else.

And if you'd taken on board my point about obligation to one's kinfolk, then you'd also understand that I wasn't sticking up for landlord or immigrant.

The one million Brits in Spain also take housing and local resources, and the majority are also of working age. They create competition for jobs and trade etc and take homes from the native population.

Now why does no-one ever mention that? Why does the average daily mail reading John Bull type not pull his own kith & kin up if the phenomenon is such a heinous crime? Where emigrating abroad is concerned no-one can hold a candle to the British. Then as soon as Johnny Foreigner dares to step foot on our precious island it's another matter entirely.

It might well be argued that the foreigners here in Britain are here in place of our lot who have themselves all buggered to someone else's land. And that trend began long before New Labour were in power.

SerpentSlayer said...

I'm with you about the fox hunting and the shooting of game birds. If a birds game the worst thing you can do is shoot her, at least buy her a drink first.
I'm here all week folks.

G. Reed said...

House prices have officially doiubled relative to wages since 1997.
Unless a managed reduction in this chronic and deliberate overpricing in favour of vested interests is implemented it will, again, go bump.

Pussy Riot In Church said...

Good to see these freaks getting whipped by cossack militia in Sochi. The BBC reported that they were jailed for singing a song in church. They did a lot more than sing a song. Watch the video to see. The Western luvvies who champion these disrespectful freaks would be calling for blood if you or I performed a similar stunt in a mosque or a synagogue. the hypocrisy of so called liberals knows no bounds.

Pussy Riot Whipped By Cossacks said...

That's the way to deal with freaks.

Anonymous said...

There's a difference between killing for food and killing for the sadistic pleasure of it. A farmer who hunts for the pot is fair enough. A bunch of tally ho toffs who use animals as live target practice is another matter entirely.

And Reichsfuhrer serpent slayer might be interested to know that his heroes pioneered animal rights, the most notable being Hermann Goering.

Anonymous said...

@ Poles paying rent, the landlord in the article has dropped people on housing benefit in favour of Poles in work. There is no suggestion that British WORKERS (as opposed to people on benefits, who of course come in every nationality) are likely to be less reliable. Poles in particular ARE more likely to be in work as, like many Eastern Europeans in particular they have a much greater incentive to work, for sending money home where every pound sent is worth many multiples more. They are also more likely to live en masse in cheap rented housing giving them much greater flexibility in terms of what they can afford to live on. Many immigrant groups are massively more likely to be out of work, Somalians have a 90% unemployment rate for example.
I didn't accuse you of sticking up for anyone but as all your critical comments are anti-Brit people can draw their own conclusions.
Brits in Spain etc has been raised repeatedly on this blog and the reply is always the same: that's Spain's concern (England for instance has a population density 440% higher than Spain, magnifying our immigrant overcrowding, infrastructure strain etc problems). We should concern ourselves with OUR problems and the massively detrimental effects in terms of pay suppression, social cohesion, strain on our infrastructure, destruction of our country's heritage and culture (many of our inner cities etc are ALREADY unrecognisable and/or no-go areas for the indigenous population) of the ruinous, uncontrolled mass immigration of the last twenty years, and the fact that as the birth rate for foreigners in Britain grows exponentially, things are set to get a lot worse for the British in their own land.

Anonymous said...

@20/02/2014 08:31 here in Tameside, it's become almost a crime to speak out about the barbaric world of blood sports.
Protecting the sensibilities of those involved in the practice of killing game birds and foxes, is now a top priority.
It's just like the hunting ban never happened at all.
It's just a cereal world of pro-hunting attitudes with-in new charter housing, the police, Tameside Council.

Anonymous said...

So you agree that some landlords are favouring eastern Europeans because they're more likely to pay rent on time - the very point I was making! The underlying reason is pretty irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. Not least because I was arguing that even that isn't justification for discriminating against your own native people whether in housing or employment.

And I don't believe for one minute that population density is the be-all & end-all of this issue. The anti-immigrant brigade would be no different if we were less densely populated.

And there're various ways you can spin the issue of Britons in Spain. One way which doesn't favour your bias is to highlight the fact that Spain has a smaller population, ergo one million Brits in Spain is a bigger number in proportion to the native population than one million Poles in the UK. There's also the fact that Spain is just one example of Brits abroad en masse - France, Cyprus, Ireland, Italy and others.

Yes, it is hypocritical to make out that mass immigration is the greatest calamity to beset your own nation, whilst airbrushing aside the mass migration of your own people to other lands as unimportant and irrelevant. Not operating such a glaring double standard doesn't make one 'anti-British'. As far as I'm concerned, a Briton has no greater right to be permanently resident in Switzerland than what a Pole has to be in Britain.

Since Switzerland has a population of 8 million, the 45,000 Brits there is (proportionately) equivalent to 300,000 Swiss in England, which certainly classes as mass immigration. And I very much doubt that if eastern Europeans lived two to a house instead of six that would make it alright in Daily Mail and UKIP circles. Then the issue would be that they're taking even more houses - the can't do right for doing wrong scenario.

Anonymous said...

The reason some people like kicking Brits in the teeth is because they think they're an easier target. As for any groups with sustained chronic unemployment, if 90% or so of them are out of work they shouldn't let any more in. Import people like Poles, i.e proven workers, in reasonable numbers and where necessary to fill specific gaps in the labour market on temporary contracts. Giving them and their offspring ANY benefits (and that goes double for communities where virtually no-one works) is lunacy given our massive national debt.

Anonymous said...

Excuse me taking about killing animals should be barred

SerpentSlayer said...

Anonymous20/02/2014 21:20, Don't mistake my mocking tone for opposition. I am most likely in agreement with most of those who support the league of cruel sports (hope I remembered the name correctly)
I was taught of what these toffs do around the peak district, wiping out species from otherwise liveable hilltops. Blasting birds out of the sky, and breeding them as fodder.
I've disabled several of their traps designed to kill the natural predators of the birds they obliterate for kicks and I wish I had the transport and the know how to do it more often.
I've heard stories of them hunting rabbits with dogs, twat-costumes bugles and all.
I have no idea what is wrong with these people, but then again they aren't alone in insanity.
The beaten drones of Britain that were once a happy and strong people can find happiness in flashing lights and other drones granted privileges showing off their finery while mocking the clueless, once your soul is so repressed and broken to the point of being able to find amusement in shows of vulgarity, dishonesty and insincerity, then harming other creatures for amusement is unlikely to reach the weakened soul hidden away behind years of beer and greasy takeaway either.
All signs of diseased humanity, degenerated back to animal, except with the thumbs and the ability to aim, the ability to mount a horse, drive an automobile, steal from the poor and bankrupt a nation.
Only once light is returned to the earth as it was once in our grandparents day for a short time, will the thick, all consuming darkness will begin to retreat and restore order to the world.
Unfortunately for us, few are willing to make a grab for the hakenkreuzbanner, the symbol of light, perhaps for fear of our own lingering darkness being removed painfully from our selves, the pain of us becoming more than we can imagine we could be.

Anonymous said...

@ Anonymous 11:32, No I don't agree, your point was that Poles were being favoured over Brits, whereas the article clearly states that Polish WORKERS are being favoured over people on benefits, the differentiation not being nationality but employment. You chose to interpret the article negatively towards Brits revealing your bias. The unerlying reason is of absolute relevance whtehr you're 'concerned' about it or not. You weren't arguing anything of the sort at the start but have now completely altered your position to cover up your bias and losing the argument.
Nobody said population density was the 'be all and end all' but it is an extremely relevant and important factor.
There is no anti-immigrant brigade just British people concerned about the millions of aliens, legal and illegal, let unfettered into our country in the last fifteen years, and a significant amount of that opposition IS based directly on England being massively overpopulated, the devastaing effects o which are increasingly manifest in the strain on our social cohesion, national identity and infrastructure.
I don't care about Spain, it's their concern. I'm concerned about the vast and exponentially growing alien ghettos in OUR country, as is anyone who actually cares about the future of Britain.
My 'bias' is in favour of my own country, not kicking my countrymen in the teeth or worrying about foreign country's immigration problems. Spanish people aren't bothered about our massive immigration problems.
The ony hypocrisy is by those Britishleaving to live abroad temporarily who then complain about immigration problems in Britain. Those who've stayed and concern themselves with the affairs of THEIR OWN country, as opposed to a bogus concern about Brits abroad aren't hypocrites but patriots putting the needs of THEIR nation first. I haven't 'airbrushed anything aside', I'd have to ignore the comment for that, but directly stated I'm not concerned or interested in the immigration problems of other countries anymore than they're concerned about our problams with Islamic expansionism for example.
Whether these Brits abroad are apathetic about their own country, prefer a foreign culture, are hypocrites or just sun seekers pales into total insignificance compared to the ongoing and exponentially worsening destruction of Britain's culture, identity and heritage.

Get our own house in order said...

Who gives a monkeys how many Brits are in bloody Switzerland, if the Swiss don't care why do you? Have a walk down Longsight (not at night), we've got OUR OWN problems on an enormous scale.

Anonymous said...

“I suppose in the eyes of a business owner loyalty to one's tribal kin doesn't really count.”
That was what I said in my ORIGINAL post. Now do you understand the meaning and relevance of that statement chump?? Or are you instead intent on playing word games in the name of awkwardness for its own sake? What I said was that landlords are prioritising Poles for rented property – WHICH THEY ARE, by your own admission.

Perhaps I chose my words carelessly and did not specify actual reasons. But that was IRRELEVANT because the UNDERLYING point was that loyalty to one’s tribal kin (namely the British) should count first, meaning that ANY reason for giving Poles priority in employment of housing is without justification.

Now what part of that do YOU not understand? Why is some moron turning that sentiment on its head to be mis-represented as ‘anti-British’ despite the unequivocal wording?

The reason is that you’re the same tiresome chap on this blog who jumps to conclusions which are very often wrong and then has an answer for anything and everything. A seriously committed time waster of the first water, and one best avoided by serious folk.

Anonymous said...

In your ORIGINAL post you said: The importation of Romanians etc won't result in a reduction in pay. Manifest nonsense, one of the primary reasons for the massive suppression in pay and conditions of the last fifteen years is the mass importation of cheap foreign labour, much of it from eastern Europe.
You said they take on foreigners as they see them as (apparently) more reliable, the reality is it's because they're cheaper, easier to exploit and don't complain, even when justified.
You then linked that comment about British WORKERS, to an article about landlords trusting Poles to be more reliable in paying rent, when the article actually compares Polish WORKERS reliability, with people on benefits, i.e. employment being the key factor not nationality.
You did 'choose your words carelessly' and 'failed to specify actual reasons': i.e failed to construct a reasoned, cogent argument, which is of absolute relevance.
Your usage of the diametric opposites: 'underlying wording' and 'unequivocal statement' makes manifest your inability to construct or communicate an argument or take responsibility for failing to do so.
I posted a direct, reasoned response based on what you NOW state was your careless choice of words. Any 'conclusions' were similarly based, not 'jumped too', if they're wrong you've failed to demonstrate where.
Answering anything and everything isn't within anyone's scope, answering confused, disjointed arguments is easy.
If you find reasoned out counter posts tiresome, and are in reality genuinely concerned about this vital issue, take some care before posting, chopping and changing emphasis and alleged meaning comes across as vague and duplicitous.
If you're trying to make a point and ARE pro-British (and not actually more worried about Brits 'taking Spanish homes', or how many Brits are in Switzerland etc) think the post, argument and its specific wording through before posting. Don't emphasise and labour instead criticisms, re the trivia of a few Brits who live abroad when the ISSUE is the disastrous ongoing consequences of uncontrolled mass immigration into OUR country.

Anonymous said...

@ Anonymous 23:11, If you're pro Brit why make snide remarks about the 'anti-immigrant brigade' and then say YOU'RE backing British tenants against Polish IMMIGRANTS. It's gibberish.